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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2020 8:21:43 GMT
It's in the news that the UK will ban the sale of all new petrol and diesel cars by 2030. Lol this is as practical and stupid as one, having to have a TV license to allow one to watch a live tv program on their mobile phone, regardless if or not they have a tele in their house. I am all for saving the planet but surely this will not work! for one, I don't think it will make the slightest difference to the planet, unless mankind literally got rid of absolutely everything in the world that gives off fumes, smoke, and vapours etc, to start with that's a lot of aeroplanes and engines of any kind, oh my word, the list is literally endless!!! then there's the aspect of! Hey, I actually like being a petrol head! So stick that in ya pipe and smoke it lol, anyway who on earth will be able to afford the absolutely ridiculous asking price which will be expected for a new electric car! and that's not to mention the upkeep of all those silly Duracell batteries! they take. No thanks! the last time I had a scalextric , I was 10. But hey we do live in a controlled society! Don't we! So a guess we can expect the unexpected!
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Post by Sam Tyler on Nov 18, 2020 12:51:56 GMT
Careful GC, don't go bad-mouthing Scalextric, you're on thin ice! Yes, I'll admit up front that I like petrol powered cars and bikes but I'm of the opinion that the notion that electric vehicles are 'green' to be naive at best. It is not just vehicles either. A number of years back some of the humble light bulbs were withdrawn from sale because they used too much electricity and now everywhere you look we have LED bulbs. And whilst I agree that their power consumption is far lower (a 12 watt LED can give the same lumen output at a 100 watt coiled coil tungsten bulb) it must not be overlooked that the energy usage has only been offset to the production rather than the user. Thanks to the electronics in the circuitry the production facility to make LED bulbs is far more complex and uses far more hazardous materials than the humble coiled coil tungsten wire bulb ever did. And as for the 'extended life' of an LED? What a load of pony, from my experience they last no longer than an old bulb does. The same goes for the production of cars. The batteries used in the electric cars have hazardous materials such as cobalt, lithium, cadmium, phosphene, germanium rather than the steels or alloys in engines. Whilst the iron and alloys have to go through a smelting process, the other mined metals and chemicals still have to go through their refining process. And whilst there isn't the polluting petrol or diesel, the electric car still needs to be charged using electricity generated from coal-fired or nuclear power stations. Some could argue that renewable sources such as solar power could be used but then we have the same production issues with production and refining of the chemicals necessary for making the huge number of solar cells necessary that the power supply that the vehicles need for charging. Or wind farms and the huge amount of carbon fibre and resin production necessary to produce the huge blades, and that's before the production of the generators etc. I was surprised to see that electric vehicles owners that plug their cars in at home need a dedicated 32 amp supply to charge a single vehicle overnight. 32 amp is the same as the supply to an electric cooker and having all rings, grills and ovens on all night. Ultimately it doesn't matter which form of powered transport is used, there is no way that any of them can be truly considered as environmentally friendly. Sam.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2020 14:08:36 GMT
An absolutely splendid post Sam! and totally agree! guess it's a classic example of where the cure is worse than the problem
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Sparky
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Post by Sparky on Nov 18, 2020 14:35:06 GMT
Careful GC, don't go bad-mouthing Scalextric, you're on thin ice! Yes, I'll admit up front that I like petrol powered cars and bikes but I'm of the opinion that the notion that electric vehicles are 'green' to be naive at best. It is not just vehicles either. A number of years back some of the humble light bulbs were withdrawn from sale because they used too much electricity and now everywhere you look we have LED bulbs. And whilst I agree that their power consumption is far lower (a 12 watt LED can give the same lumen output at a 100 watt coiled coil tungsten bulb) it must not be overlooked that the energy usage has only been offset to the production rather than the user. Thanks to the electronics in the circuitry the production facility to make LED bulbs is far more complex and uses far more hazardous materials than the humble coiled coil tungsten wire bulb ever did. And as for the 'extended life' of an LED? What a load of pony, from my experience they last no longer than an old bulb does. The same goes for the production of cars. The batteries used in the electric cars have hazardous materials such as cobalt, lithium, cadmium, phosphene, germanium rather than the steels or alloys in engines. Whilst the iron and alloys have to go through a smelting process, the other mined metals and chemicals still have to go through their refining process. And whilst there isn't the polluting petrol or diesel, the electric car still needs to be charged using electricity generated from coal-fired or nuclear power stations. Some could argue that renewable sources such as solar power could be used but then we have the same production issues with production and refining of the chemicals necessary for making the huge number of solar cells necessary that the power supply that the vehicles need for charging. Or wind farms and the huge amount of carbon fibre and resin production necessary to produce the huge blades, and that's before the production of the generators etc. I was surprised to see that electric vehicles owners that plug their cars in at home need a dedicated 32 amp supply to charge a single vehicle overnight. 32 amp is the same as the supply to an electric cooker and having all rings, grills and ovens on all night. Ultimately it doesn't matter which form of powered transport is used, there is no way that any of them can be truly considered as environmentally friendly. Sam. I wonder how this will fit for Diesel Generators.
Sorry for getting scientific and off topic..
On the LED lamp thing (Bulbs are planted int he garden!!) - I did some tests... Yes, the LED lamps do consume less power in the way of watts - for a 60w tungsten, an equivalent LED is about 15-20watts. However - the Power Factor is different - with the Tungsten lamp being an Inductive load; the LED isn't, as it also includes electronics (dangerously) a resistor to pull the 230v mains voltage down to 12v, and the something to turn it into stable DC - which would include a capacitor or two.
Electricity Bills and Meters use Power Factor to calculate the KwH you use.
Power Factor is the ratio of "Apparent Power" (that what you think is consumed) to "True Power" consumed (what you actually consume) - and is an accurate calculation of how efficient an electrical installation is.
It shows how much power is being used to the the useful work, and also how much is being wasted.
If you have a Reactive or Capacitive load - it can draw more current from the power supply than it actually needs (higher bills). A capacitive load is anything that may have Capacitors in (Washing Machine/Dryer/Battery Charger/Energy Saving lights/Laptops/TVs)
A Resistive load, is anything with Resistance in (Heater elements, Tungsten Lamps, Electric Cookers, Showers) and is said to be more accurate in terms of using what power it needs without waste.
I tried this a few years ago - for 14 days, I ran the house using nothing but old Tungsten Lamps, and then another 14 changing them to Energy Saving ones - and then connected a Power Factor Meter to the incoming mains to our house.
The results were that the energy saving ones made up what I was supposed to save in wasted power due to the increase in Power Factor. So in all - I saved sod all, and forked out a fortune for these new "all singing and dancing" lamps.
The technology of these lamps may have changed somewhat since - so must try the experiment again. Also - this all depends on your power supply too; as the Power Factor is also based on what everyone else in their houses also has.
I tried this out, as at the time - I was trying to calculate how much Diesel a generator would need for a shoot; where the Director of Photography insisted on using 6 large wooden frames (he'd build) each with 20 Energy saving lamps in. He forgot about the flicker until it was too late.
Has anyone calculated the carbon footprint all the re-charging points for these electric cars?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2020 15:10:27 GMT
Oh dear what have I started lol!
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Post by Sam Tyler on Nov 18, 2020 16:22:58 GMT
Good reply Sparky I agree that power factor has to be considered but even with the early LED lamps having a pf of 0.5 then a 5 watt LED would have been consuming 10VA which is still only a fraction of the tungsten lamp's load for an equivalent lumen output. I would hope that the pf of the LEDs have now been improved to nearer unity. The point I was aiming for was that even though the consumer has a saving, this is offset by the greater demand and emissions caused by the production process and it is that that should be considered when it comes to the production of electric vehicles too. Sam.
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Cartman
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Post by Cartman on Nov 18, 2020 17:35:18 GMT
I don't know how practical this will be. What will the impact be on the motor trade? Will existing petrol and diesel cars still be able to get fuel and parts etc?
One thing which could become big is conversion of existing cars to electricity, this is already available, I have seen stuff on electric Morris Minors on YouTube
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Sparky
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Post by Sparky on Nov 18, 2020 19:02:24 GMT
I don't know how practical this will be. What will the impact be on the motor trade? Will existing petrol and diesel cars still be able to get fuel and parts etc? One thing which could become big is conversion of existing cars to electricity, this is already available, I have seen stuff on electric Morris Minors on YouTube That was the point I left off my last post!
I wonder how many Oil companies and hedge funds will start moaning about a drop in profits? I'd expect the likes of Shell / BP / Esso will reinvest in Charging points.
Also - as more people buy up Electric Cars over the next decade - will we see the price in fuel drop due to lack of demand (as in Lockdown) or will it go the other way to discourage people from buying it?
I would expect parts will only be on sale until stocks are exhausted (sorry, bad pun). Back to the Lights thing - when they introduced Energy Saving lamps some years ago, the only Tungsten lamps you could buy were the ones already in stock - once they were gone, that was it.
Prices also seemed to differ where you went - some places they are too expensive, others, they couldn't give them away.
Another point - how do those with classic cars fit into this? Will they get an exemption?
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Cartman
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Post by Cartman on Nov 18, 2020 19:53:51 GMT
It's a big ask, getting infrastructure in place for this change. Not everyone has a driveway where you can plug in, also, filling up at a garage takes a couple of minute s, charging a dead battery will take much longer.
Also, you still have the environmental cost of shipping and trucking the electric cars half way across the world, as they almost certainly won't be built here
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Three Litre
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Post by Three Litre on Nov 18, 2020 20:15:47 GMT
I went to a lecture a couple of years by given by some technical bod I can't remember who, think it was from power distribution industry.
He made a point that all the load on the small transformers you see in some streets (I say small, about the size of a shed) at night could be a problem as that's when they cool down and if they don't it takes life out of them.
Everything has a cost.
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