Batgirl
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Post by Batgirl on Jun 12, 2019 14:00:27 GMT
Pic of the day Vettel's long walk to question the decision after the race and his swap of the numbers were clearly the actions of someone who felt wronged. Personally I think the penalty was too extreme but I understand the decision. I commend Vettel for telling the fans to stop booing Lewis Hamilton on the podium. Vettel's gripe was with the stewards not Hamilton. Hamilton has actually been booed plenty of times on the podium. I still don't think he's used to it and nor should he be. The drivers are all passionate about their races and results. That's why I don't condemn Vettel for showing emotion and anger over the decision. It was unusual to see a driver having to throw debris out of his car as he drove at Turn One ! Grosjean doesn't seem to have a lot of luck. Another thing that seems to be continually said at every race - "Another disappointing race for HAAS". Renault were pleased with a sixth and seventh finish. Nice to see Ricciardo with a fourth starting position. McLarens poor result Kvyat seems to have reinvented himself at Toro Rosso. That's good to see as he was criticised a lot when he was at Red Bull.
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Post by Gene Hunt on Jun 12, 2019 20:24:12 GMT
Vettel's long walk to question the decision after the race and his swap of the numbers were clearly the actions of someone who felt wronged. Personally I think the penalty was too extreme but I understand the decision. I commend Vettel for telling the fans to stop booing Lewis Hamilton on the podium. Vettel's gripe was with the stewards not Hamilton. Hamilton has actually been booed plenty of times on the podium. I still don't think he's used to it and nor should he be. The drivers are all passionate about their races and results. That's why I don't condemn Vettel for showing emotion and anger over the decision. I agree with just about all of that. It was a harsh decision but having watched it over and over I don't see Vettel putting much left into his steering as he returned to the track. It is the pure instinct of a racing driver to try at all costs to retain his lead and in my opinion, that is what Vettel did. Prevent Hamilton from passing. I would have preferred there to be no penalty and to have seen the remainder of the race fought as it should be. I don't think that the Ferrari appeal against the penalty will get anywhere. Should they get the decision overturned, then I'm sure Mercedes will counter appeal and claim that Hamilton only held position for the remaining laps - and did not make any attempt to overtake Vettel because he knew Vettel would be getting 5 seconds added. Vettel was magnanimous towards Hamilton at the end and I applaud his request the quell the booing of Lewis. Something that I remember Lewis doing on behalf of Rosberg a few seasons ago. Gene.
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Three Litre
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Post by Three Litre on Jun 12, 2019 20:31:35 GMT
Didn't Schumacher do something similar to Hill many years ago, 94 I think?
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Post by Gene Hunt on Jun 12, 2019 21:08:01 GMT
Didn't Schumacher do something similar to Hill many years ago, 94 I think? He did indeed. Far worse implications too as it was a title decider at Adelaide in 1994. Schumacher took the title after losing control, hitting the wall and then driving into Hill to prevent him passing. Schumacher's car plughed into the tyres, Hill returned to the pits and retired with broken suspension. Gene.
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Post by Sam Tyler on Jun 13, 2019 11:58:24 GMT
Vettel's long walk to question the decision after the race and his swap of the numbers were clearly the actions of someone who felt wronged. Personally I think the penalty was too extreme but I understand the decision. I commend Vettel for telling the fans to stop booing Lewis Hamilton on the podium. Vettel's gripe was with the stewards not Hamilton. Hamilton has actually been booed plenty of times on the podium. I still don't think he's used to it and nor should he be. The drivers are all passionate about their races and results. That's why I don't condemn Vettel for showing emotion and anger over the decision. I agree with just about all of that. It was a harsh decision but having watched it over and over I don't see Vettel putting much left into his steering as he returned to the track. It is the pure instinct of a racing driver to try at all costs to retain his lead and in my opinion, that is what Vettel did. Prevent Hamilton from passing. I would have preferred there to be no penalty and to have seen the remainder of the race fought as it should be. I don't think that the Ferrari appeal against the penalty will get anywhere. Should they get the decision overturned, then I'm sure Mercedes will counter appeal and claim that Hamilton only held position for the remaining laps - and did not make any attempt to overtake Vettel because he knew Vettel would be getting 5 seconds added. Vettel was magnanimous towards Hamilton at the end and I applaud his request the quell the booing of Lewis. Something that I remember Lewis doing on behalf of Rosberg a few seasons ago. Gene. I watched the 'incident' a number of times as most did when it was played over and over on the highlights. From what it appeared to me was that Vettel had to put on opposite lock because the back end stepped out and as a result ended up getting too close to the wall. It seemed to me that his reaction was one of trying to stay on the track rather than blocking Hamilton's progress. Although Hamilton was already committed, had he tried to overtake on the inside rather than outside I think maybe he'd have been more successful. I did note that we heard Hamilton protest over his radio at the time and that in the room prior to going up on the podium Hamilton did state to Vettel that he shouldn't have returned to the racing line. Subsequent to both these protestations it would seem that Vettel told Hamilton of the issue he had and Hamilton changed his tune in favour (to a degree) of Vettel and this was conveyed as each spoke on the podium. But in saying that, the 'support' between the two at the press conference later felt contrived and strained as if there was an atmosphere between them.
I've now seen that Ferrari have withdrawn their appeal, what do we read into that? Have they accepted the penalty and are going to concentrate on taking their improved performance to the next race? Or has the car's telemetry been reviewed in detail and shown Vettel to be at fault?
I'm not a great fan of Vettel but from my point of view, as with many, I think that the penalty was unnecessary and as Gene mentioned this ultimately impacted on the closing stages of the race since Hamilton didn't need to pass Vettel and the viewing public were denied a real race to the chequered flag.
Sam,
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Post by Dirty Epic on Jun 14, 2019 9:03:27 GMT
Some good posts there BG, Gene and Sam and it's pretty much how I see this one.
Having seen the incident yes Vettel's penalty is harsh and don't think anything was untoward or premeditated - certainly nothing like the dark days of Schumi, but within the rules he did impede Hamilton so should get a penalty. IIRC Verstappen has had penalties for similar issues so realistically Vettel and Ferrari should suck this one up!
Fair dues to Seb for not criticising or wanting booing for Lewis too, realistically does that really help? And despite the error Vettel did look a bit like his old self in this race so lets hope the incident fires him up and he gets back on it and at least gives Mercedes/Lewis some kind of pressure this year. If he doesn't and let's this get to him (which it might) he'll never win the WDC again unless Hamilton retires and even then with hungry new talent like Verstappen and Leclerc around it still could be difficult for him.
Ferrari hmm, maybe write this season off and make sure they're best of the rest and concentrate for 2020. Perhaps Maurizio Arrivabene wasn't really the 'problem' for them these last few seasons - I think he's been made the scapegoat.
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Post by Gene Hunt on Jun 14, 2019 9:33:46 GMT
Some good posts there BG, Gene and Sam and it's pretty much how I see this one.
Ferrari hmm, maybe write this season off and make sure they're best of the rest and concentrate for 2020. Perhaps Maurizio Arrivabene wasn't really the 'problem' for them these last few seasons - I think he's been made the scapegoat. It's Ferrari as a team that are not performing. Arrivabene was indeed made a scapegoat, just as Dominicali was before him. Ferrari have made so many mistakes this season and last that they simply don't deserve either WDC or WCC titles. Vettel is like marmite. He's a likable chap at times but then loses the plot at any given moment. He's not so good at taking places in a race - only when leading. That said, he's not always good at leading. With last weekend in Canada still fresh in our minds, you'll all agree that Vettel made the mistake because Hamilton applied so much pressure, lap after lap. Vettel crumbled under the pressure. Now think back to Germany last year. Vettel was leading by a mile. Then down came the rain. Hamilton started reeling him in relentlessly. Once again, Vettel cracked and slid of on the infield section and ended his race. They're all superb on the day but it is down to who makes fewest mistakes, and that has been Hamilton in recent years. Gene.
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Post by Gene Hunt on Jun 17, 2019 18:15:41 GMT
...and I see now that Ferrari have again done a U turn of sorts and have now requested a review of Vettel's penalty. This can only be done IF a team can provide stewards with new significant and relevant evidence. As of yet, Ferrari have not divulged what this "significant" evidence is but the race stewards are now trying to determine if the case should or shouldn't be reopened.
Gene.
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Post by Sam Tyler on Jun 17, 2019 18:33:19 GMT
Interesting but also quite provocative.
So what will they achieve by having it overturned now? Mercedes will counterclaim citing that it was because of the penalty that Hamilton didn't need to challenge further and that the FIA have in effect denied Hamilton the opportunity to race for the top spot.
Yes it was unfair but as with any race, the final result is determined by whatever happened during the course of the race and on this occasion the course of the race from that point was determined by the penalty. The stewards' decision was made at the time with what evidence they had before them and that's how it, sadly for Vettel, must stay.
I do feel that Vettel was cheated but if the FIA uphold Ferrari's appeal then it will be Hamilton that has been cheated. If you'll pardon the pun whatever the decision it is a no-win situation.
Sam.
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Three Litre
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Post by Three Litre on Jun 17, 2019 18:40:48 GMT
Vettel just needs to make less mistakes then these situations wouldn't arise. It does appear that Hamilton is able to force him into mistakes.
Easy for me to state of course ............!
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