Cartman
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Post by Cartman on Dec 17, 2019 13:59:01 GMT
We have touched on this topic here and there in the Sweeney and Life on Mars location threads and I think it could probably do with its own thread. What stands out to me is that, from more or less the beginning of building, thousands of years ago to some point in the last 15 or so years, man built structures that were either beautiful and enhanced the landscape, or if not beautiful, at leaset were interesting and had a bit of charachter, or even if not either of these, at least were inoffensive.
However, since about the 90s onwards they have been ugly, out of proportion and scale glass boxes, or just weird looking and tasteless. Why is this?
I like anything from the 18th century, and earlier, through the 19th and most of the 20th, I didnt used to like 60s brutalist concrete stuff, but I now think its tough and has a gritty kind of charachter compared with the soulless concoctions architects are imposing on the landscape now. Some brick buildings from the 80s were OK, at least they made some effort to match the surroundings, but that doesnt apply any more.
The massive changes in Manchester since Life on Mars was filmed in 2006 prompted this, as Manchester City Council now seems to be little more than a front organisation for property developers, they just wave through unlimited development with no thought about the damage it is doing to a once great and historic city.
Rant over
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Sparky
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Post by Sparky on Dec 17, 2019 14:20:57 GMT
Totally agree here. Though, I think architecture seems to have gone totally down hill since the 1980s.
When I lived near Derby during the 1970s and 1980s - much of the city centre was pretty much as it had been for the past 100years. Many of the older terraced streets were earmarked for clearance and a dubious Ring Road scheme proposed (which now floods).
Throughout the 80s, the council experimented with many designs - in particular to commercial premises - many, if not all have now been flattened. Having a much shorter life than the buildings they replaced.
Though most of them resembled Lego Buildings, using a mixture of coloured bricks, and brightly coloured window frames/doors. Stood against some of the remaining listed Victorian buildings - they looked much worse. These were later replaced with glass fronted and wooden paneled buildings - which (IMHO) look just as bad.
OK - a lot of the houses cleared to make way for all this were nothing more than slums and a million miles away from the minimum standard for domestic properties - but I still don't understand what the hell the Cities planners were thinking. I expect this will be the same for most cities across the UK.
In my line of work, I am lucky enough to get to go in to a lot of buildings that are normally not usually open to members of the Public. In particular disused properties - Mills/Shops/Hospitals and the like - I always find the older buildings have much more character about them - regardless of if there is a roof or rats running round them! When you consider the toil that must have taken place for them to be built, the stories they could tell, most of them have stood there through two world wars and the pride in the Architects.
I always found the Victorian Workhouses and Asylums - many of which that became Hospitals - fascinating places - as most of them remained untouched for years and years - so they are like little time capsules.
Though - quite often with sinister story or two to tell.
Railway Architecture is also another fascination with me - the different styles from the old "Big 4" (LMS / LNER / Southern / GWR). Sadly - a lot vanished after Beeching.
But some railway gems still do lurk in bushes and the undergrowth!
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Post by Cartman on Dec 17, 2019 18:08:58 GMT
Good points sparky, the European countries didn't do this to the same degree and their cities were much more severely damaged during World War 2 than ours were. They had much more rebuilding to do and needed to get it done fairly quickly.
They found that the bombed out buildings still had usable foundations and underground services so they built a new replacement building to the same size and shape as the old one so the city ended up looking like a slightly updated version of what was there before.
In some cases, like Warsaw, the city was put back exactly as it was before, Lubeck in Germany was another, and Dresden. A photo of Dresden taken in 1939 is pretty much the same as one from 2019,but one from 1945 was devastation.
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Sparky
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Post by Sparky on Dec 17, 2019 18:21:42 GMT
Good points sparky, the European countries didn't do this to the same degree and their cities were much more severely damaged during World War 2 than ours were. They had much more rebuilding to do and needed to get it done fairly quickly. They found that the bombed out buildings still had usable foundations and underground services so they built a new replacement building to the same size and shape as the old one so the city ended up looking like a slightly updated version of what was there before. I'm some cases, like Warsaw, the city was put back exactly as it was before, Lubeck in Germany was another, and Dresden. A photo of Dresden taken in 1939 is pretty much the same as one from 2019,but one from 1945 was devastation. It's funny you mention War damage.
I have a local news paper article from 1980; which shows the area that my Grandparents lived in until 1979. The area consisted of masses of back to back terraced houses, cobbled streets, corner shops.
The demolition work began in 1977, with it progressing towards my Grandparents Street in 1980. However - for some reason in 1978/79, work stopped - leaving a lot of land cleared, and other buildings 1/2 demolished.
The article mentions that on a visit to the City, a former German soldier, who had served in WW2 apologised for the damage to these properties - he thought had been caused by the Luftwaffe. He was told, the damage was in fact the work of the City Planners Bulldozers.
On a different(ish) topic; my Brother (and now my son) are huge railway enthusiasts. During the late 70s and onwards, my Brother and I spend a lot of time travelling around the network to different Stations. British Rail at the time seemed to be demolishing a lot of its older infrastructure - in that, we lost some great buildings. Derby Station was one. It made me wonder if this was before the buildings were listed - and then BR would struggle to do anything with them.
The LMS Railway cottages in Derby were earmarked (by the council) for demolition on 1979. In 1981, a local Architect brought them off British Rail, refurbished them, and are now well looked after and listed.
Cinemas are another fave too...
Recently, I had a look on the National Heritage Database website - and was surprised on just how many Odeon Cinemas are listed.
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Cartman
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Post by Cartman on Dec 17, 2019 18:34:54 GMT
A lot of the terraces which were demolished could have been upgraded, modernised and refurbished, this has happened in some places and they now look pretty good. It would have avoided the dislocation of communities and would probably have been cheaper too. Some of it was probably vanity projects by councillors, see Poulson, T Dan Smith etc in Newcastle
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Post by D.C. Burtonshaw on Dec 17, 2019 19:23:45 GMT
Good topic - yeah I remember a row of terraced houses in Luton being demolished in the mid to late 70's and when the land finally was ready for redevelopment, it became a car dealer. Sovereign Motors didn't last, so then it became a fridge and home appliance showroom, then a Blockbuster video rental store, a Morrisons that was short lived, now a Sue Ryder charity shop!
Quite a bit of Luton has changed, and an interesting Facebook group I go on sometimes shows old pictures of how the town was, which I recognise and feel quite lamentable that what was once there has now gone, when I know what is there now. People posting have some great memories, including some of the people who worked there and the characters that ran the small businesses.
I was up in Liverpool for a Beatles weekend 4 years ago this very month, and I found it interesting seeing some of the totally lifeless whole streets which are full of condemned terraced houses. They may seem a bit of an eyesore, but you can only wonder what is going to go in their place. And then you wonder about the working Liverpudlians that once lived there, in the pre WW2 days and probably before, and the children happily playing in the streets.
On the Magical Mystery bus tour, it was pointed out where Ringo Starr's childhood house was, but if I remember rightly, for some reason, that it was condemned with the rest of the terraced houses in the same street and it may not be there now, 4 years on. A shame.
There again occassionally some of the old buildings can be preserved well, I stayed in an Albert Dock hotel, which I think they'd done a grand job of converting the old dockside warehouse and a bit of character still showed through, if faintly. Nearby was the now restored pub restaurant, I had a snack in at lunchtime, which I recognised in the background of a location in The Boys from the Blackstuff. Of course back in 1982, the building was derelict and boarded up, but I'm glad it was saved for a purpose!
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Post by Cartman on Dec 17, 2019 19:38:14 GMT
From memory some of the Liverpool streets got a reprieve and the council started a scheme of selling them very cheaply to local people who agreed to refurb them and not sell them on.
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Sparky
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Post by Sparky on Dec 17, 2019 20:16:51 GMT
From memory some of the Liverpool streets got a reprieve and the council started a scheme of selling them very cheaply to local people who agreed to refurb them and not sell them on. There are still quite a lot of Terraces Streets around Sheffield/Doncaster area - and many (apart from a couple) are quite well looked after.
If I recall - with my Grandparents house - which pretty much reflected about 80% of the area, the houses didn't have any Bathroom or even an inside Toilet. The toilet was an outside affair "up the yard". Great at 11.30pm in the Winter.
Out of the 3 bedrooms, only the two largest were safe to access, the smaller one on the back above the kitchen wasn't safe- and was pretty much held up by a wing and a prayer.
Any weight or bashing about in that particular room would almost certainly bring most of the kitchen down.
And this (aparently) was one of the 'better' houses.
This is another thing I like with the "Sweeney" and "Special Branch" - they were both shot 'on the streets' with no window dressing or glitz. Euston Films would roll up with a 60 strong crew, it's actors and literally shoot Londons streets as it was that day.
Watching the episodes now (and also with Genes excellent and very thorough location spotting) you can capture life in London as it was and how it has changed.
Many of the slums and streets that were there in 1974 - weren't that different from other cities too.
I love a trip across the Hope Valley from Sheffield to Manchester, and then on to Bolton - just for the sake of looking at some of the remaining Mills and old streets around Manchester. I hate seeing those places demolished - though for some reason, felt a little easier when Fred Dibnah was involved. Perhaps it was because he gave the structures a little more respect.
I used to hate the late 1960s - early 1970s Concrete wonders (mainly carparks and offices) - but in more recent times, kind of grown a little fond of them - perhaps comparing them to some of todays offerings. Birmingham had a Concrete "quarter" as we called it - which had the (old) Library, Huge Carpark, Birmingham Rep Theatre, a Holiday Inn and the (then) ATV Studios. The latter was quite a radical design - sadly within about 15years, the lot looked very shabby.
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Cartman
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Post by Cartman on Dec 17, 2019 20:21:51 GMT
Yes, my Gran s house in Radcliffe was like that, the toilet at the bottom of the yard, no hot water and no bathroom. Used to spend a lot of time there when I was a kid in the 60s and she was on childminding duty, loved it. It was very near the East Lancs Paper Mill, see Life on Mars location report.
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Post by Gene Hunt on Dec 17, 2019 21:15:55 GMT
Theres not much fun to be had, nipping down to the outside bog at midnight in a cold December. When Bolly & me first got married we lived in a big Victorian house. It didnt have an outside crapper, but the inside bog was upstairs along a very long landing. Whenever my one brother and his Mrs visited he would never use the bog upstairs as the house was haunted and he was petrified to go upstairs and venture down the landing even with the light on. In desperation he'd go down the garden or go home early.
Those houses had so much character and appeal. Unlike anything built today.
Gene.
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