Three Litre
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Post by Three Litre on Jan 7, 2020 21:02:40 GMT
Interesting post Villain!
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Sparky
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Post by Sparky on Jan 7, 2020 21:07:20 GMT
Think most drivers were relieved when steam went out of use. Might be more romantic (right word?) but a lot more work. I can just remember going on steam trains in the Derbyshire region, early 60s. When I started on the railway in '82 there were still a very large number of drivers around the country who'd stated in steam days, most of them started as engine cleaners and worked their way up as fireman before being passed out for driving. A surprising number of them started before the second world war too, on the LMS, SR, LNER and GWR. Plenty of them hated the new diesels and electrics when they were first introduced but soon got used to the warmer cabs and (relatively) comfortable seats. It was also quite a culture shock having such a panoramic view of the line ahead compared to looking down one side of a large boiler with pipes and handrails obstructing their view. There are still a handful of ex-steam men on the job now, working for the charter companies who run the various mainline steam tours up and down the country. One of our drivers who's coming up to retirement is best mates with the chap who was the fireman on Sir Winston Churchill's funeral train from Waterloo on 30th January 1965, very soon though all of these old hands will be gone, more's the pity. Villain If you started in 1982 - I bet you had a crack at driving some good old diesels....
I used to take my Brother to Derby station on some Saturdays - it was always a gamble what would turn up - Engineers Trains, Football Specials, Things being brought in/out the works, relief / additional services and the Summer Specials. So unlike today!
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Cartman
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Post by Cartman on Jan 7, 2020 22:08:26 GMT
There were quite a few ex BR steam men at the east lancs railway when I used to help out there and the bloke who supervised me on my driving turn was one, he'd started on the railway in about 62 or 63 and said that you quite quickly got moved up from cleaning to firing at that time as they were chronically short staffed. One of the first engines he worked on were the same type as the green Loco in the Railway Children film, BR were still running them at the start of the 60s, having been built by the Lancashire and Yorkshire railway in the 1880s,by the early 60s,they were, should we say, tired!
He thought the Lancashire area got the mucky end of the stick as far as locos went and got stuff that other districts didn't want, some other engines he didn't like were 7Fs,they used to call them Austin sevens, and some others called Super Ds, they were an ex London and North Western type that no one liked as they were difficult to manage oddballs, the controls were just haphazard and they were supposedly horrible things to drive, although they were powerful.
Later on, they got some WD 2-8-0,a wartime Austerity type which steamed well but were awful to ride on as at anything over about 25 mph, the tender used to surge forward and bang against the engine so you had to hang on to something to avoid being knocked off your feet!
Thing is, despite all this lousy equipment, he loved the job, as did most of the other old hands at the time.
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Villain
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Post by Villain on Jan 8, 2020 20:19:43 GMT
When I started on the railway in '82 there were still a very large number of drivers around the country who'd stated in steam days, most of them started as engine cleaners and worked their way up as fireman before being passed out for driving. A surprising number of them started before the second world war too, on the LMS, SR, LNER and GWR. Plenty of them hated the new diesels and electrics when they were first introduced but soon got used to the warmer cabs and (relatively) comfortable seats. It was also quite a culture shock having such a panoramic view of the line ahead compared to looking down one side of a large boiler with pipes and handrails obstructing their view. There are still a handful of ex-steam men on the job now, working for the charter companies who run the various mainline steam tours up and down the country. One of our drivers who's coming up to retirement is best mates with the chap who was the fireman on Sir Winston Churchill's funeral train from Waterloo on 30th January 1965, very soon though all of these old hands will be gone, more's the pity. Villain If you started in 1982 - I bet you had a crack at driving some good old diesels....
I used to take my Brother to Derby station on some Saturdays - it was always a gamble what would turn up - Engineers Trains, Football Specials, Things being brought in/out the works, relief / additional services and the Summer Specials. So unlike today!
Yes Sparky I've been very lucky, the diesels I've driven up to now are Class 08s, 09s, 25s, 31s, 37s, 40s, 45s, 46s, 47s, 50s (the entire class as there were only 50 of them built), 56s, 57s, 58s, 60s, 66s, 67s, 70s (I've only recently been passed out on these) and HSTs. As for the electrics I've driven Class 81s, 82s, 83s, 85s, 86s, 87s and 90s, I missed out on the 84s though as they were all withdrawn by 1980. I'd love to have a drive of some of the preserved locos which I've otherwise missed out on though, the Western Region Hydraulics like the Warships, Westerns and Hymeks, and the Eastern Region Deltics. I should add that most of the classes I drove in the early days were when I was just a secondman, long before passing out as a driver, it was the norm in BR days though, it was how you learnt the job right from day one. In fact there were many times when your booked driver would do a bunk before the end of the shift and leave you to do the last bit, such as taking the loco or empty coaching stock back to shed. Happy days, never to be repeated! The first loco I ever drove was a Class 25, 25 051 on a shunt / trip job from Wembley to Tring and back with some ancient vacuum braked wagons, my driver just sat in the other chair and made the tea while I got on with it, he was keeping an eye on things though. The first loco I ever drove on my todd was a Class 87, 87 031 going light engine only from Euston to Wembley carriage sidings, I was barely 17 years old and the damned thing nearly frightened me to death, the slightest notch up on the controller had the horizon leaping towards you at alarming speed. My driver was down in the staff 'pub' ('The Griffin', haunt of many a good card game and fistycuffs over long held fueds) beneath the concourse at Euston and told me to take the loco back to Wembley. I was hoping nobody would clock me driving it on my own but when I got back to the mess room everybody kept winking at me... ''you've bust your cherry lad well done, just don't let the shedman catch you'' one of them said. One of the most memorable trips was back in 1984 when I was catching a lift back to Old Oak Common from Swansea one night, me and my driver rode back in the cab of a HST with three other drivers, one of whom was retiring and it was his last trip, we all took turns in the chair and I took my turn between Swindon and Didcot, watching the needle on the speedometer nudge 128mph as it rested on the needle stop. Not bad for an eighteen year old whippersnapper. There were many other such trips and one of the nicest things about working at a depot like Old Oak was working trains down the Berks & Hants route between Reading and Taunton as the Westbury area was still under the old mechanical semaphore signalling at the time. On one occasion I was driving a Class 50 hauled holiday relief job down that way, my driver was nodding off in the other chair and approaching Clink Road Junction near Westbury the 'distant' signal arm suddenly reverted to its horizontal position of 'caution' as I was doing about 80mph, I put the lot in immediately, went sailing past the 'home' signal at danger but managed to come to a stand right opposite the signalbox, waking my driver up in the process. The stink of hot brake blocks was something I'll never forget, the signalman was already half way down the steps shouting ''sorry mate, I pulled off for the Frome line by mistake and had to put 'em back sharpish!". My heart was pounding a bit, the driver had a word with the bobby (signalman) and we heard no more about it. In this case I was partly to blame as I'd read the distant signal wrong on the approach to the junction, I assumed it was taking me straight down the 'avoider' rather than through the speed limited junction towards Frome. Lesson duly learnt. The oddest thing that's happened to me so far is when the overhead lines came down on top of my loco between Stetchford and Aston a few years ago, the noise was incredible but the ensuing light show from the sparks was rather enjoyable! One of the porcelain insulators above me had given up the ghost just as I passed under it letting the wires drop on the cab roof. I count myself lucky that I've never had a really serious incident, I worked with both of the drivers involved in the awful Southall accident twenty years ago, both excellent railwaymen who found themselves in a terrible situation. Villain
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Three Litre
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Post by Three Litre on Jan 20, 2020 19:49:17 GMT
Railways for Ever is on Talking Pictures tonight at 8.50pm, 10 mins about the last steam service in 1968.
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Three Litre
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Post by Three Litre on Jan 20, 2020 20:59:54 GMT
Bit rubbishy, Sir John Betjeman waffling in prose when I was looking for some detail and a shot of Villain in his younger years!
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Cartman
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Post by Cartman on Jan 20, 2020 21:33:35 GMT
Fascinating stuff Villain. Another driver I knew from the East Lancs Railway, who was still on BR at the time, was based at Newton Heath, and he'd driven quite a lot of the diesel types. He liked 37s and 47s but thought 40s were underpowered.
What I did hear about that, on the LMR, there was still a bit of residual rivalry between the Midland and North Western, which dated back to when the railways were grouped into the LMS, the Midland and LNWR didn't get on and they resented being merged, which caused animosity for the first few years of the new Operation
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Villain
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Post by Villain on Jan 21, 2020 13:09:46 GMT
Fascinating stuff Villain. Another driver I knew from the East Lancs Railway, who was still on BR at the time, was based at Newton Heath, and he'd driven quite a lot of the diesel types. He liked 37s and 47s but thought 40s were underpowered. What I did hear about that, on the LMR, there was still a bit of residual rivalry between the Midland and North Western, which dated back to when the railways were grouped into the LMS, the Midland and LNWR didn't get on and they resented being merged, which caused animosity for the first few years of the new Operation The animosity continued on well into BR days and you might be surprised to hear that there is still a lot of inter-regional and inter depot rivalry about in some places, it still runs very deep! Some depots have a reputation for being very aloof, looking down on anyone from elsewhere, it's odd but quite funny sometimes. The original Birmingham New Street station (pre-'60s rebuild) was made up of two separate stations, the LNW side and the MR side, with a road running down the middle and a vast footbridge connecting the two. This is partly to do with timing and geography, the London & Birmingham Railway got there first but the MR were very good at eating into other company's territory, later on their mainline from Derby and onwards to Gloucester and Bristol came in alongside the L&B / LNWR route and much rivalry ensued. There's no roadway in the middle now of course but the layout of the track and platforms means it is still operationally two stations joined in the middle, with two sets of parallel running lines at each end going off into the tunnels, a multitude of pointwork and junctions which take quite a bit of learning before you know all the of the possible moves in and out. It's quite tricky getting a heavy freight through the station due to the severe gradients at both ends and the measly 10mph maximum allowed through the platforms. When I was at Old Oak Common in the early '80s our mess room on platform 1 at Paddington had a big old wooden table 'reserved' for Old Oak men only, it had an engraved brass plaque mounted on it warning train crew from other depots not to sit there. The staff canteen a little further up platform 1 had a similar atmosphere, the crews from elsewhere would often sit in their own corner. When we worked down to Exeter we'd often get funny looks when entering their mess room on platform 1 at St.Davids station, it was like those saloon bar scenes in old Hollywood Westerns where the piano player stops playing and someone spits on the floor...! I once went upstairs into the messroom at Bristol Bath Road Depot (now long gone sadly) to fill up my tea can and a couple of the old boys sat playing cards looked me up and down, asked where I was from, I said ''Old Oak'' and one of them replied ''oh... London'', gave me 'the look' and went back to his cards. Funny lot those Bristolians! A lot of it was just banter and taking the Mick, but there was definitely an underlying 'edge' to some of it. As for the Class 40s, yes they were certainly underpowered, but they were good sloggers for the work given to them, especially on the WCML before the electrification. They were considered as a stop gap until the wires went all the way to Scotland, it should have been completed by 1970 but it took another four years to get done. The southern half of the West Coast was all wired up by late '65 and this allowed some of the 40s to be deployed on slower freight and parcels workings and for a few years were used regularly on three or four coach locals on the branch from Rugby to Market Harborough and Peterborough, seems a bit of a waste really but that was how it was sometimes. Most of these were handled by Class 24s, 25s and 31s but the 40s started appearing on the line in '65 and carried on until the line closed in June '66. I have a photo in my collection of a Class 27 running light engine on the branch, it was one of the Midland Region allocated batch and was on test after having some attention at Leicester Shed. They didn't stay on the Midland very long, I think they all went to Scotland in '69 or '70. While all the electrification work was going on a lot of the Euston - Brum & Wolves services had to be diverted off the main WCML route at Rugby and had to go via Leamington Spa (Avenue), Kenilworth, Coventry, Three Spires Junction, Nuneaton, Water Orton and Washwood Heath, the delays were terrible at the time but the slogging nature of the 40s meant they could still make good time between the additional stops. The last time I drove a 40 was a few years ago, 40 145 is preserved but is still mainline certified and I got a lift on it from Nuneaton to Leicester, the driver was an old mate and let me have a go until we got to the outskirts of Leicester - it sounded really good at full chat . Villain
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Sparky
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Post by Sparky on Jan 22, 2020 7:38:28 GMT
Fascinating stuff Villain. Another driver I knew from the East Lancs Railway, who was still on BR at the time, was based at Newton Heath, and he'd driven quite a lot of the diesel types. He liked 37s and 47s but thought 40s were underpowered. What I did hear about that, on the LMR, there was still a bit of residual rivalry between the Midland and North Western, which dated back to when the railways were grouped into the LMS, the Midland and LNWR didn't get on and they resented being merged, which caused animosity for the first few years of the new Operation The animosity continued on well into BR days and you might be surprised to hear that there is still a lot of inter-regional and inter depot rivalry about in some places, it still runs very deep! Some depots have a reputation for being very aloof, looking down on anyone from elsewhere, it's odd but quite funny sometimes. The original Birmingham New Street station (pre-'60s rebuild) was made up of two separate stations, the LNW side and the MR side, with a road running down the middle and a vast footbridge connecting the two. This is partly to do with timing and geography, the London & Birmingham Railway got there first but the MR were very good at eating into other company's territory, later on their mainline from Derby and onwards to Gloucester and Bristol came in alongside the L&B / LNWR route and much rivalry ensued. There's no roadway in the middle now of course but the layout of the track and platforms means it is still operationally two stations joined in the middle, with two sets of parallel running lines at each end going off into the tunnels, a multitude of pointwork and junctions which take quite a bit of learning before you know all the of the possible moves in and out. It's quite tricky getting a heavy freight through the station due to the severe gradients at both ends and the measly 10mph maximum allowed through the platforms. When I was at Old Oak Common in the early '80s our mess room on platform 1 at Paddington had a big old wooden table 'reserved' for Old Oak men only, it had an engraved brass plaque mounted on it warning train crew from other depots not to sit there. The staff canteen a little further up platform 1 had a similar atmosphere, the crews from elsewhere would often sit in their own corner. When we worked down to Exeter we'd often get funny looks when entering their mess room on platform 1 at St.Davids station, it was like those saloon bar scenes in old Hollywood Westerns where the piano player stops playing and someone spits on the floor...! I once went upstairs into the messroom at Bristol Bath Road Depot (now long gone sadly) to fill up my tea can and a couple of the old boys sat playing cards looked me up and down, asked where I was from, I said ''Old Oak'' and one of them replied ''oh... London'', gave me 'the look' and went back to his cards. Funny lot those Bristolians! A lot of it was just banter and taking the Mick, but there was definitely an underlying 'edge' to some of it. I had a trip to an open day at Toton Depot sometime in the 1980s - their mess room was similar, where only Toton based men could use certain facilities/lockers/tea making etc. My Father In Law told me it was exactly the same at Tinsley Depot, and at Wath Yard too.
I thought it was petty at the time - then about a decade later I started work in the Film Industry - and that is exactly the bloody same!
There is more an "inter departmental" rivalry - anything electrical has to be handled (including carried/moved) by an Electrician, anything that needs building for equipment has to be done by Grips or Riggers, and thing fixed is Set - therefore Construction, anything an actor can pick up - is a Prop and therefore looked after a Prop Hand.
I have had to walk past numerous Camera Grips trying to manovre and cart a 1/2ton Camera dolly up stairs.
Instinct tells you to help. But, If I touched it - it'd start a civil war.
Then there was the TV Vs Film crew rivalry (if you are with one union, you can't work on the other side of production). This side isn't as bad as it once was.
Euston Films went through all this in 1971 - they were "Film Makers" making "TV-Shows" on the streets. The TV unions saw them as the Antichrist - as they felt they were taking their work away from them.
What the TV unions didn't mention was that they had way much more work as Afternoon TV had been given the go ahead. So they weren't losing out.
Back to the Trains...
I have seen 40145 numerous times - and she looks great. When a lot (if not all) of these preserved locos get out on the Mainline, they always look well turned out.
I took my eldest son to Doncaster at the end of December to see the HST Farewell tour; with a set done up in it's original BR Blue/Yellow livery - and it looked well too. That's how I remembered HST's!
I was lucky enough to see the first timetabled Revenue earning service to run into Derby - looked great sat alongside a Class 45!
Knottingly Depot had and open day in October 2017, limited to about 100 people - which I took my son too. We had a go on a Class 66 simulator and also had access to a number of Cabs - including a Class 60.
You driven any 60s Villain?
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Villain
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Post by Villain on Jan 22, 2020 11:58:29 GMT
Yes I've driven 60s, when I worked for EWS before jumping ship to Freightliner in 2006. Of the hundred built I think I drove about half of them. Lovely locos but the cabs are rather small! We used to have one on a regular early morning job, book on at Rugby at 03.40 and relieve the Peak Forest - Bletchley stone in the station, it nearly always ran via Kilsby (known to us as 'the old line' as it was the original 1838 mainline out of Euston before the Northampton loop was built) so you'd get a good run and build up speed to 60mph before crossing over to the slow lines at Hanslope Junction. If you had a green when relieving it at Rugby you'd just open the throttle all the way back and enjoy the deep, warm rumble of the engine until shutting off at Watford Gap alongside the M1, once across Hanslope Jcn you wouldn't need to touch the brake until you got two yellows on the approach to Bletchley. After backing the train into the yard it was feet up for a few hours, read a book or some car magazines and drink copious amounts of tea until it was time to take the empties back to Rugby where a Crewe man would take over. I now go to Toton quite a lot and see the rows of dead 60s rotting away, they're scattered about all over the place there and some have trees and bushes growing in them. Such a waste really, but I was happy to see a freshly repainted one there last week, in a mid shade of blue with a logo on the side saying 'Cappagh', whoever they are! Meant to say in my last post, I was on a ballast job down the Midland Mainline on Saturday and my 66 failed spectacularly whilst on full power, there was a god awful metallic scraping sound, a huge bang and everything went strangely silent - the crankcase pressure sensor went off and the engine dumped it's oil in the four foot, much the same as happened at Bedford last year..! It was two and a half hours before my mate turned up with a rescue loco to tow me back towards Leicester.... Villain
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