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Post by Gene Hunt on Mar 3, 2020 20:56:56 GMT
Yes that's correct Sparky, when they initially stopped the train at Sears Crossing (a set of crossovers between the fast and slow lines close to where Ledburn Junction is today), they split the loco and first two coaches from the other ten, leaving them stranded there. There were seventy two GPO staff and the train guard aboard this portion at the time who had no idea what was happening for quite some time. As I mentioned in my previous post the first railwaymen on the scene were a Rugby crew working a freight on the up slow line, it was flagged down by the mail train's guard. The gang had cut the telegraph and signalpost telephone wires between Leighton Buzzard and Cheddington stations, when the signalman at Cheddington didn't see the mail train approaching him at the appointed time he rang his colleague at Leighton Buzzard on box circuit line (which the robbers hadn't thought about), asking where it was, only to be told it was somewhere in the section between the two stations. At the time the manual boxes didn't have the full display panels that modern boxes have today, they only had their own section in each box. He didn't raise the alarm (or was unable to) until the gang had already left the scene for Letherslade Farm. You're right about the security changes after the robbery, only those who needed to know would be told in any detail by official railway notices that such workings were running, this very much applies to Royal Train working too. Villain Was the name on "Bridego Bridge" changed to "Robbers Bridge" for a while?
I heard a documentary on Radio 4 a few years ago, it was the last interview Bruce Reynolds gave before he passed away. They also included archive interviews with other members of the Robbery Team. Roger Cordry explained how he rigged the signals to stop the train - covering the lamps with a black glove, and then using a battery to illuminate others. Assuming they had AWS back then - it must have been confusing for the driver - the signals telling him one thing, the AWS something else.
It's a stretch of line I have never travelled on. Does much of the infrastructure from back then still in extist?
Villain is definitely your man to answer that quest Sparks. As far as the filming location (Robbery!) is concerned, most of it is now gone with only a few handrails left. Gene.
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Sparky
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Post by Sparky on Mar 3, 2020 21:39:50 GMT
Villain is definitely your man to answer that quest Sparks. As far as the filming location (Robbery!) is concerned, most of it is now gone with only a few handrails left. Gene. Pic 2 - Is that the bank they shifted the loot down to the waiting truck?
Thanks for posting them photos!
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Post by Gene Hunt on Mar 3, 2020 22:06:22 GMT
It is indeed Those photos were taken in April 2011 Gene.
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Villain
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Post by Villain on Mar 4, 2020 17:26:18 GMT
Was the name on "Bridego Bridge" changed to "Robbers Bridge" for a while?
I heard a documentary on Radio 4 a few years ago, it was the last interview Bruce Reynolds gave before he passed away. They also included archive interviews with other members of the Robbery Team. Roger Cordry explained how he rigged the signals to stop the train - covering the lamps with a black glove, and then using a battery to illuminate others. Assuming they had AWS back then - it must have been confusing for the driver - the signals telling him one thing, the AWS something else.
It's a stretch of line I have never travelled on. Does much of the infrastructure from back then still in extist?
Villain is definitely your man to answer that quest Sparks. As far as the filming location (Robbery!) is concerned, most of it is now gone with only a few handrails left. Gene. Thanks for posting those Gene, that was a nice little trip out wasn't it...? Sparky - Bridego Bridge is still called that today, 'train robber's bridge' is just a handy nickname for all of us on the railway and no doubt many of the locals down that way. The bridge hasn't really changed at all since 1963, the metal railing have been replaced but the brickwork and the stone wall on the west side are still intact. The signals and pointwork at Sears Crossing are long gone replaced by more modern versions almost ten years ago. I was on some of the engineering trains at the time and spent quite a lot of time wandering about on the bridge at night, trying to picture the location as it was during the robbery. I tried to get one of the old signal post identity plates when they took them down but someone else beat me to it. Sears Crossing was located north of Bridego Bridge but the newer formation of the junction known as Ledburn Junction is now south of the bridge. When the robbery happened in August '63 the line was still being electrified, all of the gantries spanning the four tracks were in place, as were all of the vertical 'droppers', the actual wires were mostly all in place too but hadn't been energised, this didn't happen in full between Rugby and Euston until early 1966. Whilst the electrification was going on the signalling was also being upgraded in sections, the colours light signals which the gang tampered with were fairly new but there were still semaphore signals in use at Cheddington, including in the bay platform for the old Aylesbury Town branch where D326 and the two high value package coaches were stabled after the robbery took place. A lot of the overhead line equipment was replaced with completely new and very modern looking gantries a few years ago, there's a lot more clutter about in the area too, as well as an engineers compound close by on the west side of the line which didn't exist in '63. The over bridge north of Sears Crossing which spanned the line has since been replaced by a much bigger concrete structure carrying a new road, this was where Bruce Reynolds dropped Roger Cordrey off to walk down to the signals. AWS was installed to work with the new colour light signals back then, but the only semaphore signals equipped with AWS were the yellow 'distant' signals. Whether Jack Mills received a warning or all clear at the AWS ramps or not, he would still have reacted accordingly to the aspect showing in each signal. The train passed Bletchley at precisely 02.53 and would probably have been doing about 70 or 80mph as it passed through Leighton Buzzard, but coming round the gentle left hand curve under the first bridge onto the long straight down to Cheddington, Mills would have seen very clearly the single yellow and red aspects displayed in the two signals that Cordrey had tampered with, and been able to stop without making an emergency brake application. Hope that helps! Villain
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Post by Sparky on Mar 4, 2020 18:07:48 GMT
Wow! Thanks for that Villain.
The only stuff I know about the Robbery is what is widely known. Wish I could have picked your brains last year - when my eldest Son (a much bigger train buff than I) did a school project on the Robbery.
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Post by Villain on Mar 4, 2020 20:09:29 GMT
Cheers Sparky - a lot of it comes from official documents, parts of which have been released into the public domain over the years and a copy of the trial transcript I had access to many years ago. There are quite a lot of books on the subject but most are very lacking in accuracy, often copying previous author's mistakes but the more you read the more you can weed out the bilge and piece things together. Another valuable insight was when I went to a talk in 1982 given by one of the high ranking detectives working on the case, I can't recall his name now but he was in his late '70s by then and went into the background and build up of the robbery. A lot of the detail was never reported at the time of the robbery, such as the lengths the gang went to in order to find out as much about railway operation as possible before committing to the plan and the way the two separate gangs came together, namely Bruce Reynolds' London firm and Roger Cordrey's south coast raiders. Three of the robbers got away scot free, all three unnamed, two from Reynolds' firm and one from Cordrey's. The remarkable thing about the immediate aftermath was that trains continued to run on the adjacent lines once the Police's official photographer had finished recording the scene around Bridego Bridge. If the same event took place today, the line would be shut for days causing chaos with a massive knock on effect on freight and passenger services. There are still gaps in the story regarding the railway operational side that I've never found any specific reference to, well not yet anyway, such as how and when was the rear portion of the train removed from Sears Crossing and where was it taken, what happened to the guard and the other seventy two PO staff aboard it, how was D326 and the two front coaches moved away from Cheddington and who moved them etc. Most of the people involved are long gone now so perhaps we'll never know. I have some very good photos in my hard drive of the event but can't upload anything at the moment - just google 'great train robbery 1963' and plenty of them will pop up, sore familiar, some less so. Zone out the 'Ronnie Biggs living it up in Brazil' crap and you'll find some incredible images taken in the hours just after the robbery itself and some photos of the signals that Roger Cordrey and John Daly tampered with. Other related images will appear too, such as the stills from a 1966 German TV documentary which used a BR Class 24 loco (D5024) in place of the larger English Electric Type 4 loco D326. It's hard to make out where this was filmed but D5024 was a Midland Region loco based at Rugby Shed at the time, it's possible it was filmed on one of the secondary lines radiating from Rugby, either the Leamington, Market Harborough or Leicester lines, another possibility is the Northampton to Market Harborough line. You'll find several excellent photos of D326 in the Aylesbury bay at Cheddington station and some rare candid shots of Jack Mills and David Whitby. There'll also be several shots of Letherslade Farm, the ex-Army truck and the two Landrovers which bizarrely both had the same fake registration numbers (BMG 757A), and the Mk1 Lotus Cortina (BMK 723A) bought brand new by Bruce Reynolds to use as a recce car when planning the route from the farm to Bridego Bridge and back again. In some of the Cheddington shots you can see the old stationmaster's house in the background, it's still there today and has hardly changed at all since '63. I meant to correct myself in my previous post regarding the overhead wiring etc - at the time of the robbery there were large gaps where the gantries had been installed but the wires were not yet strung up between them (it was all done very patchily to start with). You can see what I mean when you google the images mentioned above. Villain
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Post by Sparky on Mar 4, 2020 20:50:51 GMT
Cheers Sparky - a lot of it comes from official documents, parts of which have been released into the public domain over the years and a copy of the trial transcript I had access to many years ago. There are quite a lot of books on the subject but most are very lacking in accuracy, often copying previous author's mistakes but the more you read the more you can weed out the bilge and piece things together. Another valuable insight was when I went to a talk in 1982 given by one of the high ranking detectives working on the case, I can't recall his name now but he was in his late '70s by then and went into the background and build up of the robbery. A lot of the detail was never reported at the time of the robbery, such as the lengths the gang went to in order to find out as much about railway operation as possible before committing to the plan and the way the two separate gangs came together, namely Bruce Reynolds' London firm and Roger Cordrey's south coast raiders. Three of the robbers got away scot free, all three unnamed, two from Reynolds' firm and one from Cordrey's. The remarkable thing about the immediate aftermath was that trains continued to run on the adjacent lines once the Police's official photographer had finished recording the scene around Bridego Bridge. If the same event took place today, the line would be shut for days causing chaos with a massive knock on effect on freight and passenger services. There are still gaps in the story regarding the railway operational side that I've never found any specific reference to, well not yet anyway, such as how and when was the rear portion of the train removed from Sears Crossing and where was it taken, what happened to the guard and the other seventy two PO staff aboard it, how was D326 and the two front coaches moved away from Cheddington and who moved them etc. Most of the people involved are long gone now so perhaps we'll never know. I have some very good photos in my hard drive of the event but can't upload anything at the moment - just google 'great train robbery 1963' and plenty of them will pop up, sore familiar, some less so. Zone out the 'Ronnie Biggs living it up in Brazil' crap and you'll find some incredible images taken in the hours just after the robbery itself and some photos of the signals that Roger Cordrey and John Daly tampered with. Other related images will appear too, such as the stills from a 1966 German TV documentary which used a BR Class 24 loco (D5024) in place of the larger English Electric Type 4 loco D326. It's hard to make out where this was filmed but D5024 was a Midland Region loco based at Rugby Shed at the time, it's possible it was filmed on one of the secondary lines radiating from Rugby, either the Leamington, Market Harborough or Leicester lines, another possibility is the Northampton to Market Harborough line. You'll find several excellent photos of D326 in the Aylesbury bay at Cheddington station and some rare candid shots of Jack Mills and David Whitby. There'll also be several shots of Letherslade Farm, the ex-Army truck and the two Landrovers which bizarrely both had the same fake registration numbers (BMG 757A), and the Mk1 Lotus Cortina (BMK 723A) bought brand new by Bruce Reynolds to use as a recce car when planning the route from the farm to Bridego Bridge and back again. In some of the Cheddington shots you can see the old stationmaster's house in the background, it's still there today and has hardly changed at all since '63. I meant to correct myself in my previous post regarding the overhead wiring etc - at the time of the robbery there were large gaps where the gantries had been installed but the wires were not yet strung up between them (it was all done very patchily to start with). You can see what I mean when you google the images mentioned above. Villain Fascinating stuff. I'd have loved to have gone to that talk.
I gather the Loco and front two coaches were moved to Cheddington, and then the loco taken straight to Crewe. When the Police arrived to examine the Loco at Cheddington - it wasn't there, so had to be returned.
As you say, there seems to be no mention of the 2nd portion of the train, what happened to the staff and Guard. Though I did read a book that mentioned the Guard carried out his duty, by placing detonators on the track and then walking to a Signal Box to notify the Signalman. It also mentioned - everyone on the train with an Irish Surname/Connections was investigated by the Police and Post Office - that's all you hear of them.
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Post by Three Litre on Mar 7, 2020 14:21:49 GMT
Looking up the train robbery on Wikipedia, the gang were released pretty early for such a major robbery, with an amount of violence.
Low life the lot of them.
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Post by Three Litre on Mar 7, 2020 14:24:36 GMT
Cheers Sparky - a lot of it comes from official documents, parts of which have been released into the public domain over the years and a copy of the trial transcript I had access to many years ago. There are quite a lot of books on the subject but most are very lacking in accuracy, often copying previous author's mistakes but the more you read the more you can weed out the bilge and piece things together. Another valuable insight was when I went to a talk in 1982 given by one of the high ranking detectives working on the case, I can't recall his name now but he was in his late '70s by then and went into the background and build up of the robbery. A lot of the detail was never reported at the time of the robbery, such as the lengths the gang went to in order to find out as much about railway operation as possible before committing to the plan and the way the two separate gangs came together, namely Bruce Reynolds' London firm and Roger Cordrey's south coast raiders. Three of the robbers got away scot free, all three unnamed, two from Reynolds' firm and one from Cordrey's. The remarkable thing about the immediate aftermath was that trains continued to run on the adjacent lines once the Police's official photographer had finished recording the scene around Bridego Bridge. If the same event took place today, the line would be shut for days causing chaos with a massive knock on effect on freight and passenger services. There are still gaps in the story regarding the railway operational side that I've never found any specific reference to, well not yet anyway, such as how and when was the rear portion of the train removed from Sears Crossing and where was it taken, what happened to the guard and the other seventy two PO staff aboard it, how was D326 and the two front coaches moved away from Cheddington and who moved them etc. Most of the people involved are long gone now so perhaps we'll never know. I have some very good photos in my hard drive of the event but can't upload anything at the moment - just google 'great train robbery 1963' and plenty of them will pop up, sore familiar, some less so. Zone out the 'Ronnie Biggs living it up in Brazil' crap and you'll find some incredible images taken in the hours just after the robbery itself and some photos of the signals that Roger Cordrey and John Daly tampered with. Other related images will appear too, such as the stills from a 1966 German TV documentary which used a BR Class 24 loco (D5024) in place of the larger English Electric Type 4 loco D326. It's hard to make out where this was filmed but D5024 was a Midland Region loco based at Rugby Shed at the time, it's possible it was filmed on one of the secondary lines radiating from Rugby, either the Leamington, Market Harborough or Leicester lines, another possibility is the Northampton to Market Harborough line. You'll find several excellent photos of D326 in the Aylesbury bay at Cheddington station and some rare candid shots of Jack Mills and David Whitby. There'll also be several shots of Letherslade Farm, the ex-Army truck and the two Landrovers which bizarrely both had the same fake registration numbers (BMG 757A), and the Mk1 Lotus Cortina (BMK 723A) bought brand new by Bruce Reynolds to use as a recce car when planning the route from the farm to Bridego Bridge and back again. In some of the Cheddington shots you can see the old stationmaster's house in the background, it's still there today and has hardly changed at all since '63. I meant to correct myself in my previous post regarding the overhead wiring etc - at the time of the robbery there were large gaps where the gantries had been installed but the wires were not yet strung up between them (it was all done very patchily to start with). You can see what I mean when you google the images mentioned above. Villain Villain, you organise a train spotter 43tv, majoring on the robbery! Following which we could all then meet up at farmhouse and play Monopoly with real money.
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Post by Sparky on Mar 7, 2020 14:28:14 GMT
Villain, you organise a train spotter 43tv, majoring on the robbery! Following which we could all then meet up at farmhouse and play Monopoly with real money. Is the farm house still there?
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