B16YUG
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Post by B16YUG on Dec 16, 2019 9:08:27 GMT
Came across this video from 1978 discussing car security... interesting how people used to perceivably leave their cars unlocked, staged peerhaps?
The items in the All-Agro looked suspiciously placed! To think those looking back on car security in 2019 will be watching videos of re-lay theft and cloning of keys!
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Three Litre
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Post by Three Litre on Dec 16, 2019 9:43:31 GMT
Came across this video from 1978 discussing car security... interesting how people used to perceivably leave their cars unlocked, staged peerhaps? The items in the All-Agro looked suspiciously placed! To think those looking back on car security in 2019 will be watching videos of re-lay theft and cloning of keys! Interesting video. In some ways I don't think we've moved on with keyless technology being a liability. You wave a gadget around someones front door, get a signal to another gadget and you're away.
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Sparky
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Post by Sparky on Dec 16, 2019 11:34:38 GMT
Came across this video from 1978 discussing car security... interesting how people used to perceivably leave their cars unlocked, staged peerhaps? The items in the All-Agro looked suspiciously placed! To think those looking back on car security in 2019 will be watching videos of re-lay theft and cloning of keys! Interesting video. In some ways I don't think we've moved on with keyless technology being a liability. You wave a gadget around someones front door, get a signal to another gadget and you're away. Suffered that one first hand. A few years back a couple of doughnuts were going round our estate opening "keyless" cars and syphoning the fuel. They had acquired, via the internet a box which could open most keyless cars (including mine).
On a couple of occasions - I went out to the car in the morning to find it unlocked - and was puzzled as to how; as I am notorious - borderline OCD on checking if my car is locked. I thought I had issued with the car, as £30 of fuel suddenly vanished. (I ended up having all the plugs/filters/fuel pump off/tyres checked every day etc).
I brought one of these boxes myself for about £25 - out of curiosity, to see how they worked - I planned to back engineer the electronics. And I haven't still got round to it - it still sits on a shelf in my workshop. I assumed that key fobs used encrypted signals - and you need a compatible receiver to decrypt it.
The original key fobs from years back, used a short burst of analogue radio frequency, so were a piece of cake to get round - all you needed to know was the frequency it operated on, and anyone a little savvy in electronics could build a battery operated transmitter....
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B16YUG
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Post by B16YUG on Dec 16, 2019 12:24:26 GMT
Yes my daily driver Audi RS3 has had an attempted Relay theft on it.... Glad I had taken some extra precautions after we were burgled for keys to nick our then new Golf R in 2014.
I've got security footage showing a recent attempt on mine, not bothered about the presence of the cameras but thankfully as I had planned they were unable to pick up a signal.
Only real deterrent to stop the car being taken is physical security, a steering wheel lock or clamp / drive bollards. - If you are unlucky enough to have a car with early keyless entry the keys are always broadcasting the proximity signal and crooks can buy a signal booster to relay open and start the car. - Get yourself a thick safe or a Farady pouch to keep your keys in. - Most keyless cars after 2018 have a revised design motion switch in the key, and it only transmits when it's being moved, in someones hand or pocket unlike the earlier design that were always broadcasting.
Devices that crack the ECU seem to me readily available on the internet so have a nice modern car and physical security/parked in a garage is a must unfortunately.
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Post by Sam Tyler on Dec 16, 2019 12:39:25 GMT
Came across this video from 1978 discussing car security... interesting how people used to perceivably leave their cars unlocked, staged peerhaps? Car security was notoriously bad back then, look at how basic the keys were from the majority of makers. There was a big market for security items such as the various models of Krooklok but how often do we see them these days?
From my own experience there was an attempt to steal my mk4 Cortina one night. The door locks were far too easy to open with another Ford key but thankfully the ignition key wasn't so easy. The annoying thing was that in the attempt to take the car the would-be thief gave up but pulled the ignition barrel out with his key leaving me with an immobile car. On any other day it wouldn't have been too much of an issue but that day I had to get in to college for a 9am exam. I was just fortunate the a neighbor was off work and able to take me in on his bike so I made it with only minutes to spare.
Sam.
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Sparky
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Post by Sparky on Dec 16, 2019 12:53:27 GMT
Yes my daily driver Audi RS3 has had an attempted Relay theft on it.... Glad I had taken some extra precautions after we were burgled for keys to nick our then new Golf R in 2014. I've got security footage showing a recent attempt on mine, not bothered about the presence of the cameras but thankfully as I had planned they were unable to pick up a signal. Only real deterrent to stop the car being taken is physical security, a steering wheel lock or clamp / drive bollards. - If you are unlucky enough to have a car with early keyless entry the keys are always broadcasting the proximity signal and crooks can buy a signal booster to relay open and start the car. - Get yourself a thick safe or a Farady pouch to keep your keys in. - Most keyless cars after 2018 have a revised design motion switch in the key, and it only transmits when it's being moved, in someones hand or pocket unlike the earlier design that were always broadcasting. Devices that crack the ECU seem to me readily available on the internet so have a nice modern car and physical security/parked in a garage is a must unfortunately. I still have and use a crook lock. I have two uses for it :-
A) Locking the car and B) As an emergency tactical pain distributer. (Used to dish out pain to the back of someones head - if the circumstances so dictate).
The Faraday Pouch is a very easy and cheap security fix. (I made my own)
Using a Jiffy Bag lined with Tin Foil. (As Shoplifters do to evade the door alarms on shops).
You can get all kinds of scanners for the ECU, ranging from the cheap (crap) ones, to mediocre and more expensive ones. I brought a Mediocre "real time" scanner for about £80, to read error codes on my car, and look at it's running (during the era my fuel was being pinched). I was surprised just how much information I could draw out, about the Car/Engine and codes.
A Mechanic showed me a more elaborate version that runs from a Laptop - this can connect via your cars OBD2 socket - OR work WiFi, requiring no physical connection at all - and that could retrieve anything and everything.
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Post by Sam Tyler on Dec 16, 2019 13:38:10 GMT
Interesting discussion so far but I wonder what members thoughts are on the latest BMW ad being shown (I think it is a 4 series) where they show that you can unlock the car by putting your phone against the door lock?
A quick search has also bought up this video:
The BMW Digital Key allows you to turn your smartphone into a car key. With the key, you'll be able to lock and unlock your BMW and even start the engine without needing a physical key. Your digital key will be stored securely in the BMW Connected App. The option 'Digital Key for 5' allows you to share it with up to 5 other people. You will be provided with a key card that has the same functions as the one on your phone. If a key relay can be developed easily enough how long will it be until the hackers can develop an app that speed scans the access codes to gain access to the car?
Electronic keys are very clever and all that but as with any software based system they will all end up as fallible at some point and will then cost significantly more to enable further security updates. Has it now become a case of using the technology more and more 'because they can'? Maybe it is because I am a skeptic but is there any real advantage over a mechanical key with an internal proximity chip to override an immobilizer and turn on the ignition?
Sam.
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Sparky
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Post by Sparky on Dec 16, 2019 13:52:52 GMT
It wouldn't take long at all Sam. As police constantly say - the Criminals and Tec always seem to be one step ahead. As fast as a new method of security is developed, criminals always set to and try to find ways round. Though - given todays technology it is much harder. I suppose, with the BMW keycard - criminals would need to know how the Alogorythm works, to be able to develop something to get round it. If you can get a keycard, instead of your phone - I would think (like chip & pin) it wouldn't be long before a device is developed that can read them. The technology must exist already to do this - so BMW dealers have the tools available if someone loses their Key/Codes etc. If that technology falls into the wrong hands (disgruntled employee etc) - that's when it's becomes widely available to crims to buy.
Going back to the early 1900s, when the first Electric Burglar Alarm was developed (By a British Inventor none the less), it didn't take long for a couple of crims to suss out how they worked and could foil an alarm and empty a small warehouse within 30minutes.
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Cartman
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Post by Cartman on Dec 16, 2019 14:08:06 GMT
Car locks were fairly easy to undo then, especially when they got a bit worn. I remember one day in about 1980 or 81, this bloke parked outside our house in a mark 1 Capri and locked his key in the boot. I saw him struggling to asked if he needed help, and I tried the key to my Austin A40, it opened it! For a laugh afterwards, we tried it in the doors and it opened them too!
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Villain
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Post by Villain on Dec 16, 2019 15:27:27 GMT
Interesting stuff, love the period clobber... am I the only one who's started checking the car reg' numbers on the DVLA site...? Just looking at the silver XJ6 that Tony Bastable had his eye on, it was last taxed in '96 and had a new V5 issued in December '97. Looks like a proper geezer's motor with that black vinyl roof... Villain
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