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Post by Dirty Epic on Apr 9, 2019 9:09:08 GMT
This repeat sound phenomenon also happens with vinyl. I've heard while DJing and the amp is turned right up you'll get a faint repeat of the start of the record while on the run in. I must say I've never seen one of the early video tape recorders. They must of been very expensive at a time when I would say a majority of people in the country were renting TV sets because of the expense. Thankfully these machines are allowing lost programs to be recovered. The two recent Likely Lads episodes that turned up are really good. I hope more show up. I saw and advert for one of the first VCRs - using cassettes, having a programmable (mechanical) timer - as used to be found on cookers. It had buttons that look more than capable of handling the rigours the national grid, and looked like the entire unit needed a forklift to move it. The "cheapest" available unit - as of 1974 - was around £600-700.... crikey!
Bob Monkhouse had three machines running at home - as being a TV heritage fan, he was angry that TV companies routinely showed a programme and then wiped them - and in years to come, we wouldn't have much TV heritage. How right was he....
When Bob Passed away, Kaleidoscope took on his entire archive - which was then located in a purpose built outbuilding at Bobs former home. There were literally 1000s of tapes, reels (even radio recordings). BBC4 did a documentary on it. Amongst many of these tapes - some recorded in the late 60s; they managed to recover many long missing programmes. Including many of Bobs own.
On the issue with sound - and an episode of Bullseye. If you are watching the programme as it is broadcast through and aerial/dish - the sound echoing/sync issues will be different to "print through", and more than likely the drift is that you get when transferring videotape to digital medium - and the bit rates of the sound don't match... aparently.
I discovered this myself, when transferring some home videos of the kids to DVD - some of the longer videos would drift, or the sound would echo - and I tried everything to get round it.
Wow those VCR's from the early 70's would be cost around £7K or money today. Arguably you can now get semi pro-equipment cheaper than that today!
IIRC I think the VHS machines even by the early to mid 80's were still around the £400-£800 mark depending upon the make, model features and were nowhere near as good as the ones that got produced by the 90's when you could get a fairly decent model with LP, S-VHS etc. for around £200-£300. Same with DVD the first machines (players only) were top money and now like VHS it's starting to be eclipsed by digital download etc. so you can get a half decent machine in Asda, Tesco and Sainsbury's etc. for £40-£75. Same with the run of the mill HDTV's for sale these days. They're unthinkable prices compared with was charged for the 70's-90's tech.
Yes I remember one those IBA Engineering Announcements had a big feature on HDTV. Didn't Japan's NHK begin experiments with HDTV as far back as the mid 70's? They also had good features on current and future tech/developments within the industry on them. Very handy if you ever went to buy a new TV or Video and the good old salesman tried blindsiding you with good old Bull about how good it was and it's features etc. Shame something similar isn't knocking around these days. I know we get programmes like The Gadget Show and Click but they're more widely geared to either IT or a more trendier version of Tomorrow' World IMHO. I'm sure the TV industry has been working on things to eclipse BBC iPlayer, Freeview Play, Sky Q etc. for a fair few years and programmes like the IBA's would give you a insight on where things would go next.
You could be right about that delay echo on the Bullseye episode Sparky, but it did seem similar to the ones on Auf Pet which were way before Digital and also made by Central too.
Love your insights on the industry mate keep them coming.
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Three Litre
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Post by Three Litre on Apr 9, 2019 9:40:42 GMT
I thought they overdid the celebration of this find. Its only 11 seconds, no sound and a song that exists in loads of other places. I thought it more significant that they found a number of Dr Who episodes in 2013 that don't exist anywhere else. However, anything Beatles related is hot property I guess.
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Post by Sparky on Apr 9, 2019 10:33:15 GMT
I thought they overdid the celebration of this find. Its only 11 seconds, no sound and a song that exists in loads of other places. I thought it more significant that they found a number of Dr Who episodes in 2013 that don't exist anywhere else. However, anything Beatles related is hot property I guess. I think, when Video Tape was introduced as an industry standard for Television, the idea was that a programme could be recorded to it, then broadcast, wiped and the tape used again. Tapes were quite expensive; so companies would show it's content and then wipe it.
The old way of Archiving something for prosperity involved "Telerecording"; which recorded the image and sound to 16mm film, and a film copy kept in the archives. A Telerecording machine effectively was a customised 16mm camera pointed at a video screen (hence why the quality wasn't brilliant). A couple of 1960s "Top of the Pops" (the the ones they are allowed to show on TV that is) exist in this form.
Companies such as ITC at first only saw the only way forward as shooting on 35mm film; as different countries used different types of video tape systems - and an industry standard was years away from being agreed. At least with a film print; they could copy the negative; and even dub a different language soundtrack to it - as they had been doing for years with Cinema release films. Every TV station in the world had facilities for 16mm and 35mm film.
ITV discovered the value of archiving in 1969; when Thames Television dropped "Crossroads" from it's shedules. After months and months of protests from London viewers - they brought it back. Luckily for Thames - ATV hadn't yet wiped those tapes (as their VT engineers were on strike) and Thames had to show those.
It wasn't really until the mid 70s that "someone" realised the value of archiving TV - and storing tapes.
That's only as good as the machines that can play them - as with 2" tapes; there are only 2 or 3 working machines in the UK - when they fail; that's it. So companies are keen to get as much 2" recorded TV digitisted.
I can't see why they made such a big deal about the lost Beatles footage - we must be desperate if they regard some off screen 8mm silent film from Mexico as a good find.
Did anyone see the "Bowie" footage of Top of the Pops they found in a loft a couple of years ago? That was quite a find.
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Post by Three Litre on Apr 9, 2019 11:52:53 GMT
Yes, Top of the Pops with Dave Lee Hand Down Your Top.
Won't be seeing him again.
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Post by D.C. Burtonshaw on Apr 9, 2019 16:52:16 GMT
Talking of things like pre-emptive echoes and background sound being picked up on TV programme transmissions, I've noticed something like this on at least one episode of the original (1st or 2nd series) Special Branch produced by Thames in 1969-70 (Derren Nesbitt series).
After one of the advert breaks finishes its jingle of a piece of the them tune, it delays a bit before showing the next part of the story, and during the delay, a womans voice can faintly be heard counting numbers before the story continues.
Seems like they picked up background noise of one of the crew but it wouldn't be the director as all the episodes were male directors, so wonder what she was?
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Post by Arthur Pringle on Apr 9, 2019 17:05:22 GMT
Something I've wondered about Sparky concerning video taped tv shows of the 70s is the sound 'echo' you often hear before & after an actor says his line, it's most obvious when a line is shouted. I was watching an Armchair Theatre play last night & you could feintly hear Tony Selby ( playing an army sergeant ) barking his lines before he said them. This isn't good at all because it pre-empts what is about to happen. Why does this happen?
Also if you listen to some of these videotaped shows on headphones you can feintly hear a voice in the background giving what sounds like camera directions.
As for hearing Directors instructions faintly in the background - as a scene progresses while shooting, the director will sometimes give instructions. The Mics used for years were directional - so would only pick up what they were pointing at - it's also possible anything else could bleed through. (Despite not being able to hear Tanks, Nuclear Bombs, Aircrafts - sound mixers are notorious for sounding out the Catering truck)!!
These days, they also use Radio Mic packs for each lead actor - which will pick up much less, apart from the voice.
Hope this explains something!
The voices are heard just before a camera shot changes, from what I've seen of behind the scenes footage of videotaped programmes it sounds like it's coming from the people in the gallery rather than on the studio floor.
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Post by Sparky on Apr 9, 2019 20:36:35 GMT
As for hearing Directors instructions faintly in the background - as a scene progresses while shooting, the director will sometimes give instructions. The Mics used for years were directional - so would only pick up what they were pointing at - it's also possible anything else could bleed through. (Despite not being able to hear Tanks, Nuclear Bombs, Aircrafts - sound mixers are notorious for sounding out the Catering truck)!!
These days, they also use Radio Mic packs for each lead actor - which will pick up much less, apart from the voice.
Hope this explains something!
The voices are heard just before a camera shot changes, from what I've seen of behind the scenes footage of videotaped programmes it sounds like it's coming from the people in the gallery rather than on the studio floor. Almost certainly Arthur; I would think the countdown voices were comms from the Studio Gallery. Though the original "Special Branch" was a TV Studio series, so back then would have been recorded in one shot, as editing was quite awkward back then. So the voices could also be a floor manager counting the actors back in - as the Breaks/Stings and titles would be played in and recorded to the same tape.
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Post by Sparky on Apr 9, 2019 20:48:02 GMT
Some more pictures of Central TV studios, Lenton Lane in Nottingham. Now an additional Campus for Nottingham University.
The Scenery dock. To the left, is the large scene dock door into Studio 7 (the largest studio) - home to "Bullseye", "Family Fortunes", "Price is Right" etc. On the right is the Scenery workshops, Drape stores, Visual Effects workshops Directly in front, through door at far end is the Prop Store and scene loading bay, plus stairs to film vault.
Studio 7 audience doors from main corriodoor
Studio 7 "Star" dressing room - where Presenters would tart themselves up!
Main Reception to building. VT and Transmission Areas upstairs.
The Foundation stone.
Part of the Film and VT vault/library (spread across two floors)
The Rear of the building - Workshops and OB truck area (at far end)
The Architects Model as of 1983!
The Canteen area.
Studio 7 - taken from the above lighting gallery.
Anyone recognise which programme these came from.... (they are still scattered around the building)
Enjoy!
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Post by Arthur Pringle on Apr 9, 2019 21:50:44 GMT
I recognise those wall hangings from Blockbusters, looks like they went to a bit of trouble making them.
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Post by Sparky on Apr 10, 2019 6:26:52 GMT
I recognise those wall hangings from Blockbusters, looks like they went to a bit of trouble making them. Yep! Take your place on the Hotspot Arthur!
They were formed out of something like a soft fibre glass - kind of like those foam blocks they use for flower arranging etc.
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